tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2609668304633418767.post2251205899165484992..comments2023-12-24T17:41:42.989-08:00Comments on seraillon: Lives of the Poets: Roberto Bolaño’s The Savage Detectivesseraillonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17654593356535433945noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2609668304633418767.post-45925088003981605232015-08-04T14:14:05.711-07:002015-08-04T14:14:05.711-07:00Thanks, Jacqui. Yes, I'd recommend giving Bola...Thanks, Jacqui. Yes, I'd recommend giving Bolaño another try. I'm a bit astonished to see that I've written more posts about him than about any other writer - there are certainly other writers I prefer - but that does suggest something about his ability to engage the reader (this reader anyway) in surprising, rewarding ways. I thought this was just a terrific book - as Tom says in a comment above, a possible life changer at the right time for the right kind of reader. It's easy to feel daunted by Bolaño until you realize that, like his young protagonist Juan Garcia Madero, he's just an enthusiast fan of literature. seraillonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17654593356535433945noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2609668304633418767.post-66278352672348279832015-08-04T10:10:13.545-07:002015-08-04T10:10:13.545-07:00I have to admit to feeling a little ambivalent abo...I have to admit to feeling a little ambivalent about the prospect of The Savage Detectives (my unread copy has been gathering dust for a few years), but your excellent post has piqued my interest. I particularly like what you say in your 5th and 6th paragraphs - it sounds as though this novel encompasses anything and everything as it's fizzing with ideas. And I love that image of generations of poets bouncing around and zinging about like electrons in a vast chamber (in an earlier paragraph).<br /><br />It's interesting to read your comments about your previous responses to Bolaño's work, especially the bit where you liken the reading experience to feeling a little left out of a private joke or club. I've only read his short stories (Last Evenings on Earth), and while I enjoyed several of them, two or three left me a little cold. I felt as though I simply wasn't 'getting' them. I should give him another try sometime. JacquiWinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16220597283351925721noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2609668304633418767.post-23182444482325147892012-02-06T10:31:32.023-08:002012-02-06T10:31:32.023-08:00Tom - How depressing that students in a fiction cl...Tom - How depressing that students in a fiction class would actually refuse to read something. I guess they would have <i>really</i> loathed that Jack Nicholson novel from <i>The Shining</i>. <br /><br />Gavin - Thanks very much. The more I think about that metaphor (exploding the locks), the more sense it makes to me that Bolaño's approach is more like poetry, free from any of the conventional restraints one might associate with the novel form. It is, after all, a book about poetry and poets, a world in which he placed himself.seraillonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17654593356535433945noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2609668304633418767.post-671070664877642032012-02-05T18:35:58.848-08:002012-02-05T18:35:58.848-08:00Scott, what a fabulous post. I love the bit about...Scott, what a fabulous post. I love the bit about the spring that explodes the locks. It is a thing that explodes and then turns in upon itself, with humor and joy and pain. Now I am going to read your review again..Gavinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12865699135545209220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2609668304633418767.post-63526022717606277212012-02-03T10:39:11.898-08:002012-02-03T10:39:11.898-08:00Whadd'I miss from being away from here overnig...Whadd'I miss from being away from here overnight? <br /><br />Tom: Lezama Lima or no Lezama Lima, there's just another associational rabbit hole one can go down to an uncertain end. <i>Strawberry and Chocolate</i> - what a delightful film (supposedly, Castro liked it so much it convinced him to eliminate state penalties against homosexuality). <br /><br />Rise: Thanks. That over-the-top duel scene stands out by its being, well, a duel scene, but it's dazzling how much Bolaño packs into it: suspense, hilarity, kitsch, literary associations and impersonations, games with perspective and literary history, absurdly trite symbolism, not trite symbolism. Not to mention his choice of narrator...<br /><br />Caroline, Richard, Tom, everyone: Tom's compared <i>The Savage Detectives</i> to <i>Wuthering Heights</i>, so I hope he'll forgive me for stooping to compare it to "Mystery Science Theater 3000." But there's an example of a performance packed with a similar plethora of obscure references included by virtue of a certain uncensored, free-wheeling call and responsiveness. You certainly don't have to get them all to enjoy the show (and a lot of them - as in <i>The Savage Detectives</i> - are howlingly funny). <br /><br />Richard: I'm not entirely convinced that <i>The Savage Detectives isn't</i> something of a poem. Might Cesária 's <i>Sión</i> suggest its structure?seraillonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17654593356535433945noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2609668304633418767.post-86797389985990217902012-02-03T10:28:06.843-08:002012-02-03T10:28:06.843-08:00I took a fiction writing class in which we were as...I took a fiction writing class in which we were assigned "Pierre Menard, Author of the Quixote." Most of the rest of class not only hated it, but actually <i>refused to read it</i>, past the first page at least. They were angry they had been asked to read it, vocally so.<br /><br />A fascinating and educational experience.Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2609668304633418767.post-65706394136913783532012-02-03T08:30:35.569-08:002012-02-03T08:30:35.569-08:00When I was typing my comment the thing I was think...When I was typing my comment the thing I was thinking was that I would so love this to be a real discussion. What a lot of fun that would be. I do so love a debate plus I'm far more eloquent verablly than in writing. Oh what pains I have to endure... <br />I was a bit sarcastic. All in all I found reading what little I have read funnier than sad. <br />I did get along with Borges rather well. <br />The thing about the poems was something you wrote, Richard, I haven't read his poems. And I meant he wrote a novel that isn't a novel, a fake novel, but a fake novel about poetry. Written in one sentence like this, that came out wrong. That was me being too verbal again.Carolinehttp://beautyisasleepingcat.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2609668304633418767.post-4445961471223150362012-02-03T07:38:33.693-08:002012-02-03T07:38:33.693-08:00Thanks, Caroline, I appreciate your response, in p...Thanks, Caroline, I appreciate your response, in particular because many in the book blogosphere are reticent to engage in such friendly debates. Although you and I can (and will) differ on whether we think Bolaño was an elitist, of course, it's interesting to me that you moved from leveling that accusation against him to then analyzing his personality (the "someone was in deep pain" comment) after reading just part of one book of his! Ironically, I actually agree with both you and Tom on this point since I think there are screams of pain AND screams of laughter in <em>The Savage Detectives</em>; I find the fact that it's not being tilted one way or the other for convenience's sake refreshingly balanced and honest. Was Bolaño a failed poet? Maybe, but that's not for me to say--I haven't really read his poetry yet, although I'm not expecting great things from it either from the 2-3 poems that I have read of his. The thing is that I don't have a problem with him recognizing that he was a better novelist than a poet, and I disagree that <em>The Savage Detectives</em> isn't "about poetry." That's actually one of the the things it's most definitely about--just not in the sense that you can expect to read the characters' poems one after another. The approach is more unconventional. Much more unconventional for some, I get that.Richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01746599416342846897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2609668304633418767.post-12621425889402994682012-02-03T06:33:22.418-08:002012-02-03T06:33:22.418-08:00The screams were too loud
Or the laughter.
Carol...<i>The screams were too loud</i><br /><br />Or the laughter.<br /><br />Caroline, whatever you do, <i>do not read Borges</i>. The screaming will be deafening, and your deep sympathy for the feelings of "other people" will be too painful.Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2609668304633418767.post-88162276418099568702012-02-03T01:58:46.479-08:002012-02-03T01:58:46.479-08:00The thing is I'm most certainly not a novice a...The thing is I'm most certainly not a novice and there were only a few names in the first 250 pages that were lost on me but I tried to think what it could feel like for other people... And personally, I hate to name-drop. I gave that up with my neurotic 20 year-old self. If I had been a high-schoold rop out, I might still do it. That's where the reasoning came from. <br />I think you can be a high-school drop out and still be elitist.<br />It's interesting after all... A high school drop-out, failed poet who writes a novel that isn't a novel about poetry and stuffs it with cultural refrences. <br />Someone was in deep pain... Maybe that's why I couldn't finish it. The screams were too loud.Carolinehttp://beautyisasleepingcat.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2609668304633418767.post-49621425299776553632012-02-02T21:24:10.981-08:002012-02-02T21:24:10.981-08:00Caroline's comments about Bolaño's name-dr...Caroline's comments about Bolaño's name-dropping being elitist and her question about whether <em>The Savage Detectives</em> is or isn't "a book for a novice of literature" shed light on some of our disagreements over this book's worth. Knowing that Bolaño was a high school dropout and thus essentially an autodidact who was just a voracious reader, I find it hard to understand the charge of elitism. He was a lifelong <em>fan</em> of literature by all accounts, and it's not hard to see his enthusiasm showing up in the namedropping (real and/or invented) from my point of view. You can not enjoy this aspect of his writing by all means, but I don't think it's fair to call Bolaño an elitist for it. As for whether the book is or isn't for novices, although I don't normally think of books that way, I tend to side with Tom's response. In any event, I always want the writer to hit me with their best shot and to read something on their terms rather than on dumbed-down for novices terms. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the point that Caroline intended, but shouldn't we be celebrating the <em>Don Quixote</em>s and Prousts rather than worrying about whether novels are fit for novices who might not understand all the allusions? Big deal if they don't (no harm caused)!Richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01746599416342846897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2609668304633418767.post-28917720235104520842012-02-02T19:28:55.437-08:002012-02-02T19:28:55.437-08:00I don't know anything about Lezama Lima that w...I don't know anything about Lezama Lima that wasn't in the movie <i>Strawberry and Chocolate</i>, which means I know nothing.<br /><br />Roughly speaking - Neil Young fan? - Rimbaud burns out, Verlaine fades away. My next trip through the novel, I have got to pay way more attention to Lima's story.Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2609668304633418767.post-63359284475311423662012-02-02T17:02:16.414-08:002012-02-02T17:02:16.414-08:00Make that 2 months, and longer.
Scott, I was str...Make that 2 months, and longer. <br /><br />Scott, I was struck by what you call literalism in the book's scenes. The writer dueling with a critic is particularly over the top. This is not trite symbolism, this is the actual. And it could be funny, given the underlying idea of the critic as foe and then as friend (who somehow saved his life, literally, by sending him medication abroad). <br /><br /><i>One of the astonishing things about Bolaño is the extent to which he seems to have absorbed, like someone with a photographic soul, everything he ever read or heard about literature.</i><br /><br />So true. The photographic soul was a great asset to the writer and he clearly maximized his use of it.<br /><br />Glad that after several books, you had a 'breakthrough' with Bolaño.Risehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17446964640160585194noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2609668304633418767.post-25021451021057261782012-02-02T15:25:26.917-08:002012-02-02T15:25:26.917-08:00Some novices, yes. I wonder what my life would hav...<i>Some</i> novices, yes. I wonder what my life would have been like if I'd had <i>The Savage Detectives</i> at age 17 instead of <i>The Dharma Bums</i>. I'd genuinely like to hear from some 17 year olds reading this book. <br /><br />Oh please write about the Rimbaud/Verlaine element. And how does Lezama Lima - or does he at all - get baked into the Ulises Lima layer cake?seraillonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17654593356535433945noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2609668304633418767.post-89535276753418288462012-02-02T14:12:02.070-08:002012-02-02T14:12:02.070-08:00Yes, exactly - definitely not a book for a novice ...Yes, exactly - definitely not a book for a novice of literature, but very much a book for <i>some</i> novices of literature, a life changer, if they are lucky enough that the book gets into their hands.<br /><br />I have vaguely toyed with writing about the Rimbaud strain. And thus Lima by analogy is Verlaine, and in fact there are some parallels with Verlaine's life, likely more than I remember, which I could not see until I had the Belano-Rimbaud link.<br /><br />The novel is an enormously interesting look at creativity and the artist's vocation.Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2609668304633418767.post-87485723290443957592012-02-02T12:36:35.611-08:002012-02-02T12:36:35.611-08:00Anonymous: Good heavens, thank you! As Mark Twain ...Anonymous: Good heavens, thank you! As Mark Twain once said, I can live two weeks on a compliment.<br /><br />Richard: Okay, okay <i>four</i> weeks on a compliment. I'm good for the month - thanks! And thanks too for "pointillist gifts" - a nice way to look at it. I'm often in the habit of running off after writers other writers mention, but if I did that with <i>The Savage Detectives</i> I'd probably be stuck on it forever like a hamster on a wheel.<br /><br />Caroline: Thanks. I wrestle with your point, since I can certainly imagine a frustration with Bolaño's display of his own erudition (imagine nothing - I've felt it myself). And you're probably right - this isn't a book for everyone. But at the same time, I think this erudition is in part his subject. No matter how educated one is, one can't possibly get all the references; not even Bolaño himself could get them all. So it's again a part of the game he's playing with us, which is, I think, ironically aimed at taking literary pretension down a peg. I was thinking about this topic this morning, and it suddenly occurred to me that the right teacher just might be able to do wonders with this book with a group of high school students. Who, after all, is more of a "novice of literature" than 17-year-old Juan Garcia Madero?seraillonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17654593356535433945noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2609668304633418767.post-66147617663366431132012-02-02T11:14:19.632-08:002012-02-02T11:14:19.632-08:00A great post, I agree. Too bad that I didn't f...A great post, I agree. Too bad that I didn't feel like this about the book. <br />I think the name dropping is elitist. I can't imagine anyone who hasn't read a lot, getting along with it. If I hadn't read such a lot of French and other literature, I could imagine, I would have felt frustrated. I see it isn't gratuitous name-dropping, it really seems to make sense, to be tied together but still, this isn't a book for a novice of literature. Or is it?Carolinehttp://beautyisasleepingcat.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2609668304633418767.post-21534783535996748192012-02-01T21:30:17.624-08:002012-02-01T21:30:17.624-08:00Fantastic post, Scott! Only, how could I have alr...Fantastic post, Scott! Only, how could I have already forgotten about that literary discussion between Belano and the female bodybuilder and B's comment that "that shows a lack of respect for the reader"? Such a wonderful moment in a novel full of wonderful moments! On the literary games and the namedropping (both of which I enjoy while realizing that many others don't or at least don't to the same extent), I often think of those as Bolaño's pointillist gifts to the reader rather than look-at-me showboating. Looking up Pierre Louÿs' <em>Aphrodite</em> on Wikipedia to see why in the world García Madero might have mentioned it, for example, I come across a description of a work "considered a mixture of both literary excess and refinement"; is this just a throwaway reference for a teenaged character becoming familiar with 19th century French literature or maybe a conscious example of Bolaño making fun of his <em>métier</em>? In any event, thanks for reading along with us despite your previous partial irritation with Bolaño--and glad to hear that <em>The Savage Detectives</em> was so satisfying for you. I understand, believe me!Richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01746599416342846897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2609668304633418767.post-11154469785734124062012-02-01T18:01:31.849-08:002012-02-01T18:01:31.849-08:00Wow, Scott, one of the best reviews of TSD that I ...Wow, Scott, one of the best reviews of TSD that I have read in the last 4 years. Congratulations! Glad to know that there are a few people with wide open eyes and ears capable of understanding and articulating the magical gravitational forces of RB's art. You should send this review to the New Yorker, or any other major magazine. B. deserves it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com